Category: philosophy/religion topics
I know people are irritated by christians "Shoving their religion down people's throat". And I don't blame you. I really don't.
But if you see someone who was in agony minutes ago healed in front of your eyes, doesn't that make you think?
We had a friend around last weekend. Saturday he prayed for my ear that was blocked. It popped open. Okay, the blockage came back but it was open for a while.
Sunday morning he prayed for my fiance's shoulder which hurt. It was much better.
And yesterday evening, my fiance and this friend, and another friend, went to my fiance's grandmother to pray for her because she was supposed to go through surgery in her bowels. Apparently a bit of the bowels somehow stuck to the bowel lining, she was in agony and could hardly eat anything. They prayed for her yesterday and she got healed.
Then someone braught up her partial deafness in one of her ears. They prayed for that and she can hear 100% now.
Then they came home, told me about it, told me that she can hear 100 and Suddenly one of our friend's looks fell on a bag. And on that bag it said: %100 per cent.
Okay. The latter thing COULD be discredited by some as coincidence, which I don't believe in. But the rest ...
what do you think when you read something like that? Doesn't it make you think?
I have to add that this is not the first time I have seen something like that. It's happened before that people's growths in their belly were healed, that someone's leg, which was shorter than the other, grew out. Did you even know that one leg being shorter than the other is a major reason for backpain?
So what do you think? Instead of preaching, it is demonstrating how much god loves us.
"god loves you".
People got annoyed by that because they don't feel that god loves them. Some people think he has something against them. They hate us even for saying that god loves them.
But when you see this demonstrated ... does that change your views, or make you think?
And it is not about those faith healers. Not at all. We bleieve that god loves us all and that he can work through all of us.
The words "god loves you" are meaningless.
It's like someone telling me a shadow loves you, a gust of wind loves you; in other words, it makes no significant difference in my life.
People talk to me about god on the bus or on the street and it's not offensive.
They get confidence believing in a divine being, I get confidence believing in myself and in those dearest to me.
Yes I fail sometimes. Yes people I trust fail me sometimes.
It's the same thing for people who believe in god. He always comes through for you? Is that what you honestly think?
It would be funny if I were to go around expecting to think a certain way about someone only when something extraordinary or miraculous happened. Waiting for a superhero, watching out for opportunities to save or intervene on someone's behalf just to say, that makes me think someone loves us, someone exists.
And about your question, what are we expected to think when we hear about such occurrences? Is this supposed to serve as proof for god's love, for his existence?
What should we be expected to think if let's say I saw my enemy on the street and a car cut him down after cursing him secretly?
Am I supposed to believe satan exists?
"Satan loves you."
I wouldn't mind having a friend with superhuman powers on my side.
Today I'm going to curse the bus driver so he may croak in his seat because I wish to believe my superhero loves me.
Imagine if if it really happens?
I firmly believe in the power of prayer. that said, I am not a christian. In my religion, The Gods do not have to love us and They don't necessarily have to be merciful. that said, I've often prayed to Asklepios and apollon, both Gods of medicine and Healing, when those whom I've loved were sick and even for myself a few times. Sometimes, They've answered in dramatic ways, sometimes it was a minor thing and sometimes, They didn't answer at all. But I'll never stop believing in Them or in any of the other gods and goddesses. It sounds like your friends have good hearts and strong faith. That's what counts here. The power of prayer has it's own special energy that no one can understand, but if The Universe, The Gods, God etc. hears it, It/They/He will often listen. Raskolnikov, please don't curse someone like that. It can be very dangerous and have unintended consequences. I hope what you wished does not come to pass.
Rascolnikov, yes I believe satan exists but he does by no means love you.
Ande yes obviously everyone can tell you over the internet that god healed someone. What I mean is though, If you actually saw in front of your eyes that someone prayed for someone and they got healed ... what would you think about it?
Tiffanitsa I agree that cursing people can be very dangerous. Our words have more power than we think.
in the second poster's defense, I feel he was simply trying to make a point. to answer your question, Ines, yeah, it certainly makes me think...what silly, silly people!! I take pride in thinking/doing/living for myself, and think it rather selfish to attribute happenings in life to a higher power. just as believing in one gives you confidence, I gain confidence from living my life to the best of my ability, and knowing I can overcome the obstacles I'm faced with cause I have the strength/will to do so.
I would stop being skeptical only if the person healed were a close relative and the medical history were known to me.
And I would be glad, no doubt about it. I would be happy for my relative.
Would I be overcome by a spiritual experience, some overwhelming conviction? No, that would most likely not even cross my mind. The happiness and well-being of my relative would be more important.
Taking advantage of such occurrences so you can embrace them to say god really exists and loves me is selfish and opportunistic. I’d be surprised if you still remember those people were healed.
Explain why you think god would want to perform healings in such a mysterious way.
Maybe he thinks we human beings need a little magic in our lives? Hey you people, what you need is some magic. I’ll do all these strange and unusual things from behind the scenes to make you look toward the stars and wonder about me. I’ll leave it up to you to decide whether I exist or whether I love you.
I want to know what motivates god to creep among us wearing an invisibility cloak.
He’s a big tease? Aflirt?
“Rascolnikov, yes I believe satan exists but he does by no means love you.”
Am I the only one who finds this statement humorous?
Love seems so alien, lifeless and stale when someone says god loves you or satan doesn’t.
And when this is done to what are naturally human emotions the meaning is lost. It’s like we’ve gone off to talk about feelings inside a meteorite.
What a good way to desecrate my idea of love.
Pure Love, I am very happy that this happened for you, and I encourage you to keep believing, and keep praying. I am a very spiritual, but not religious person. I believe that if desired enough for the right reasons, everyone will get what they deserve, whether that is good or bad. I personally don't believe it is the God that so many people talk about. I live my life to my fullest potential, care for those I love, avoid, but do not disrespect, those I do not care so much for, and I self reflect a lot, spending sometimes hours alone thinking about how I can improve my weaknesses, finding ways to learn from both my positive and negative experiences, and feeling appreciation for the strengths I have acquired. For me, that has always been enough. I also believe that nature has a power beyond our understanding, but that's for another topic. To answer your question, Pure Love, yes, this does make me think. It makes me think that if you sincerely believe and have faith in whatever you choose, you, and those you love will be rewarded for it.
that's great that it's working for you, ines.
i don't believe in god so much, however i do believe that if you wish for something hard enough the angels will reward you. yes, i believe in angels and there's nothing wrong with that.
I have to ask this, not because I'm trying to get anyone's goat here, but I ask out of admittedly pure ignorance since I am not a believer. Is it standard Christian behavior to not only pray for just about anyone's minor aches and pains and other inconveniences like plugged ears, and also to expect miracle healings because of them? I mean, I would expect such prayers over something life-threatening, but not minor little things. Such stuff would usually go away on its ow just due to natural processes, wouldn't they, not the intervention of the supernatural, yes?
I'm going to have to also take Raskolnikov's side on this whole idea of a god loving, hating, or otherwise having any feeling or regard for me on a personal level. It is hard for me to imagine exactly what a god is, as they seem to exist so far apart from the everyday human existence. Like was said earlier, it's like saying the wind or the thunderstorm or cosmic rays love you. I believe more in the love of other Earth people than I do any resident of supernatural realms, be they real or imaginary. I'm not saying they are impossible or can't happen, because I bet there are many possibilities out there, but they are just sure hard for me to grasp. But se, I've never been one who is spiritual or who had some special emotional connection with spiritual things. I believe things happen just because of cause and effect with some random chance thrown in. We are not being played like some great chessboard. Storms happen because of forces of nature, for example, not because one's higher power is having a bad god day and wants to scare sinners and non-believers into liking him. So many aspects of religious faith are just very hard for me to grasp. I do not claim faith is no good for anyone, but I do think that it's something I personally will never understand.
Godzilla,
As a convert myself,though perhaps not an orthodox one in many people's minds, I can try to address some of this:
I think there's a lot of variation of degree. For one thing, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but a prayer cannot by its nature imply expectation. Aka, you can ask, but you may not get.
And here's where I depart radically from most faith people: my expectations based on simple odds are usually that I won't get. And that's not an assertion against the Creator, it's just that ... well, most people don't and, basically, why me? I know that sounds like the 'Why Me' argument meaning why did this happen to me, but what I mean by it is, why would I expect that I might get bailed out of something, when I know full well, that first, many other decent people - more decent than I've been over the years - have not gotten a break, and most of my life has been a series of knocks both merited and unmerited.
Like you, I assert most things, like storms, are attributable to natural phenomena and not God taking out his anger - just or otherwise - on various populations. A really good definition of magic or supernatural is simply some technological development so profound you basically don't know how it works. So people with little or no geological or meteorological knowledge, or like most of the masses, have the historical memory of a chicken, they see one or more concurrent or consecutive disasters and believe this has never happened before / this is the end. I'm not sure that's even God's problem, not even the fact people are thinking this stuff.
But I think that prayer is more an attitude rather than a cause/effect relationship, because most of people's prayers are likely to go unanswered. Consider two families who both may justifiably ask for assistance financially, perhaps pray that a raise would come at work or whatever, and they're both justified. And add to this equation that if one family gets the raise, the other will not. Now if both are equally strapped, equally in need, whose prayer gets answered, if there's intervention at all? I have no idea. And if you believe in a Christian God, by necessity you must assert free will, and that God provided us with the choice, which all things have a cost. So would he cancel that principle and intervene to assist by managing the choice of the raise giver?
This is where the actual physical answering portion breaks down, and my wife says I think too much.
But I think prayer is probably an attitude more than cause / effect. I mean I used to at least inwardly laugh at the thought my wife will pose a question to God like "OK Lord where did I put my keys?" I don't laugh anymore, after learning more of what she actually means by it. It's not even like she was expecting this big hand to reach down, point a gold finger to the shelf above the sink, it's a mentality thing. More brilliant minds than mine on here regarding religion and philosophy, particularly Christianity, could comment on this, perhaps they will.
I understand not being particularly influenced by testimonies, as some call it. I personally am not, not any more than by a testimonial produced in a pamphlet. However, I've learned over the years that people who are, like my wife and daughter for instance, aren't shallow because they are moved by those things. And while I personally am seriously wowed by discovering how some natural phenomenon works, and gain respect for my Creator as a divine engineer as a result, that stuff leaves my wife shaking her head going 'What?' But if one asserts there is a God in the Christian sense, then one could conceive he could interact with people in a way, or on the level, that is meaningful to the individual.
As to love, well I certainly understand your thoughts that God couldn't love us individually. I certainly used to think that. However, although I don't think that anymore, I also don't think he loves us in the way we think of love. I mean, I love my daughter to the exclusion of other kids. I'm not likely to go sign up to chaperon a whole bunch of overweening and extremely dramatic / squeaky teenage girls. However, I will gladly have my daughter have her friends over for a sleepover and they can make a mess, squeal, watch mushy movies and get all cryee / want chocolate and all that ... well you get the picture.
And when my daughter was a baby well, babies puke, spit up, poo, pretty much ooze from every orifice natural and otherwise. But as a dad you pretty much change your shirt without complaining. But if you're at the pub and someone were to dribble on you, you might just smack them.
And with my wife I listen to all the things women say, you know, the whole business ... they gotta tell you the whole thing down to the quarter inch. But I don't listen to other women that way, that would make me seriously impatient. So I'm seriously exclusive as a mortal, about my love. Even at that I can get cranky or impatient with the best of 'em towards the ones I'm theoretically loving towards.
But I have personally seen, and we all know of, far far too many experiences where people are allowed to do things to other people in life, where if the love were favored, at least the defenseless minor in the situation would get some favor. But neither the defenseless nor the perp is shown any real favor there apparently, at least in the majority of cases. Religious people try and make high-sounding anecdotal arguments which for me come up pretty empty, but really, some things happen that really don't work out for the best in the short or long run. I mean, we all know of situations where someone paid a really heavy price with some seriously long-term effects, and the perp got no real net gain. In fact they may well be said to have suffered loss. I can think of things that happened to me, serious stuff, that if someone even began to do to my daughter I would do all in my power to stop it. But that's because I love her to the exclusion of the other party, and I'd say this, I know myself well enough there are things as has happened to me I would kill to prevent happening to her. Obviously I love her to the exclusion of the perp.
If we're honest, I bet most of us would have strangled Ted Bundy slowly if that would have prevented him from taking down an innocent woman - because we would favor her rights to remain unvictimized to his right to live at that point. I think that's where the afterlife is supposed to fit in, where Divine Justice gets carried out, because it sure don't happen here. At least in the vast majority of cases. I'm not being critical when I say this, I'm just being honest. So do I think God loves me? Oh yeah, but I don't think he at all prefers me to you or anyone else.
But I certainly don't claim to have this all figured out; there are a lot of things that most Christians I know of take for granted that are quite a struggle for me.
On that thought, I'm heading out to clear up damage in my yard produced by a most natural of phenomena, winter ...
I haven't seen anybody being healed, and I'd have to see it to believe it.
If somebody was cured of their illness after somebody else prayed for them, I'd want to know whether there were alternative explanations, and if so, what they were. In the blocked ear case, what proof is there that it wouldn't have come unblocked had nobody prayed for that to happen?
God's love is a separate matter. I believe God is in me. When I am God, I am loved by God.